EZX10RF putting out wrong addresses

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Anonymous
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January 29, 2011 at 6:32 pm

Post count: 9

#40296

I am using the EZX10RF to link x10 codes from my alarm system to insteon. I am only using the nodes generated in ISY for program use, I have no other scenes linked.

My alarm interface is plugged directly into the EZX10RF, just because it was a convenient way to know it was on the same leg. I am using x10 addresses O1, O2, and O3.

What I am seeing on the isy event window is, at times, the EZX10RF will repeat the previous address, sometimes over and over. If, for example, I send send O2, it may translate correctly, but if I then send a O3, it will translate to an O2 node. And for several other triggers of O3, the node O2 will keep being sent. It will happen on any combination of addresses, not just the O2/O3 combination.

Any thoughts?

Anonymous
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January 29, 2011 at 10:16 pm

Post count: 1001

#43645

It sounds like full X10 message sequence is not being sent. X10 messages are sent in two segments. The first is House/Unit, the second is house/command. The following is a sample from an ISY where an X10 D9 On command is sent on the powerline, with the X10 message segments followed by the EZX10RF node for D9 reporting an On state. Although the ISY annotation says D9/On the message segment is actually only D/On. The unit number 9 is assumed from the previous X10 segment. If the first X10 message segment is not sent or not received the wrong node will respond.

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:56 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 A7 00

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:56 PM : [ X10] D9

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:57 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 A2 80

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:57 PM : [ X10] D9/On (3)

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:57 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.DB.DE 00.00.05 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:57 PM : [Standard-Group][01.DB.DE–>Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:57 PM : [ 1 DB DE 5] DON 0

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:57 PM : [ 1 DB DE 5] ST 255

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:58 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.DB.DE 12.9F.E4 41 11 05 LTONRR (05)

Sat 01/29/2011 05:08:58 PM : [Standard-Cleanup][01.DB.DE–>ISY/PLM Group=5] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

What does your event viewer trace show? Can you post a sample.

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 12:09 am

Post count: 9

#43646

I am unable to see the x10 signals from my isy. I can say that the isy was seeing the signals fine when I had a coupler repeater installed, which I no longer have. I was looking for the EZX10RF to resolve my lack of x10 communication. I was thinking after I posted here that if my memory is correct, the alarm system sends the x10 codes twice. Could that be an issue to the EZX10RF?

Paul

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 12:09 am

Post count: 9

#43647

.

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 12:13 am

Post count: 192

#43648

Are you using the EZX10RF to just tranceive the alarms X10 RF signal to the other phase or are you using it to map an X10 command to an Insteon link?

The alarm is sending an RF X10 signal and not a power line one correct?

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 1:42 am

Post count: 1001

#43649

The X10 traffic is necessary to evaluate what is happening. The initial node 5 On is generated after the two X10 message segments; D9 followed by D9/On. As before although the ISY labels the second segment as D9/On the actual X10 second segment is only D/On. After the first D/On and the subsequent Insteon messages for Group 5 On from the EZX10RF, I sent a second D/On only (no D/9 message segment) and the EZX10RF sent the next set of Insteon Group 5 On Insteon messages.

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:43 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 A7 00

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:43 PM : [ X10] D9

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:52 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 A2 80

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:52 PM : [ X10] D9/On (3)

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:52 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.DB.DE 00.00.05 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:52 PM : [Standard-Group][01.DB.DE–>Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:52 PM : [ 1 DB DE 5] DON 0

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:53 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.DB.DE 12.9F.E4 41 11 05 LTONRR (05)

Sat 01/29/2011 08:20:53 PM : [Standard-Cleanup][01.DB.DE–>ISY/PLM Group=5] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

This is the second X10 D/On alone which also triggers a set of node 5 On Insteon messages.

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:03 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 A2 80

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:03 PM : [ X10] D9/On (3)

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:03 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.DB.DE 00.00.05 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:03 PM : [Standard-Group][01.DB.DE–>Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:03 PM : [ 1 DB DE 5] DON 0

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:04 PM : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.DB.DE 12.9F.E4 4B 11 05 LTONRR (05)

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:04 PM : [Standard-Cleanup][01.DB.DE–>ISY/PLM Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:49 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 AF 00

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:49 PM : [ X10] D10

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:51 PM : [X10-RX ] 02 52 A2 80

Sat 01/29/2011 08:21:51 PM : [ X10] D10/On (3)

Note that the above X10 message segment 02 52 A2 80 is labeled D10/On even though it is the same as the 02 52 A2 80 in the first sample which is labeled D9/On. The Unit number 9 is what the ISY assumes from the last X10 House/Unit code received for D9 or D10. It is the A2 80 (D/On) which triggers the EZX10RF and which node is determined by the last house/ unit segment even though the house/unit segment was sent several powerline commands back.

Move the EZX10RF and alarm connection to the same 120V leg as the ISY PLM or put the coupler back. An extension cord can be used to get the EZX10RF and alarm connection to the ISY PLM plug point. The X10 messages are in the UDI forum post which I take to indicate the coupler was in place when those event messages were generated ??

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 2:16 am

Post count: 9

#43650

Lee,

My post’s in the UDI post were not from the alarm system. They were while I was setting it up, via a x10 controller. I no longer have the repeater, so I will find a way to get the alarm system on the same leg as the isy and post the log.

I posted this over here as it seemed to be more of a EZX10RF issue. Possibly not so.

BLH,

All powerline, looking to convert x10 “on’s” to insteon.

Paul

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 2:33 am

Post count: 1001

#43651

Paul,

This forum is fine. I keep an eye on both for SHN questions. The EZX10RF will respond for each O/On segment it receives. Which Group (node from the ISY perspective) generates an Insteon message depends on the last House/Unit segment received. As you can see in my last post even thought the last house/unit code X10 message segment was several powerline messages in the past it still controls which Group (Node) responds to the House/Command X10 message segment.

I’m pretty sure this will turn out to be normal for the X10 message segments the alarm system is generating but no way to be sure without the X10 messages being traced.

Thanks
Lee

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 11:58 am

Post count: 192

#43652

Lee probably has th exact answer. I don’t think the EZX10RF can convert a power line X10 signal to a Insteon one.
If it can. Then I would guess it would need time to receive the X10. Then map it to the Insteon Line and send it.

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 1:04 pm

Post count: 1001

#43653

BLH

The EZX10RF works with both X10 RF and X10 powerline messages. Either X10 message source will trigger an Insteon On/Off message for the associated Group number. The ISY Event traces I’ve posted on both the ISY forum in getting the EZX10RF defined and this topic were generated from my MAXI controller so I could separate in time the House/Unit message from the House/Command message. The House/Command message triggers the generation of the Insteon Group On/Off message, the House/Unit message that preceded it way back when controls which Group is triggered. I think the X10 message segments from the alarm system are coming in a sequence such that the wrong Group number is being triggered. At least that is the working theory until we can see the X10 messages in the ISY Event Viewer. That should provide the definitive answer.

Thanks for keeping an eye on the forum and your responses. They are always helpful and appreciated.

Lee

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 2:15 pm

Post count: 192

#43654

Thanks Lee. I was not aware of the fact the EZX10RF could also take a power line X10 signal and trigger an Insteon On and Off event.

I wounder if the X10 signals are being sent with out checking the line for traffic. I know some X10 devices are not polite at all and will gladly step on power line signals.

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 2:36 pm

Post count: 1001

#43655

That is a distinct possibility. Insteon devices are good at not stepping on each other. X10 is not. The fact that Insteon traffic is being generated by the X10 messages may not be anticipated by the alarm system. Without any ACK built in a House/Unit message could be getting lost in the powerline traffic. This would cause the next House/Command message to trigger the wrong Group.
Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 2:39 pm

Post count: 9
#43656
Well, some interesting results. Finally got things where, at least temporarily, the isy is also seeing the x10 part of things. The layout of my house, has always created a nasty situation for x10 without a bunch of boosters, and couplers both of which I gave away too soon not thinking of my alarm system. Worse come to worse, I can add relays to the alarm and use an EXIO6I. The alarm is definitely sending x10 twice, no way to stop that.

O1 = 3
O3 = 1

I should have reprogrammed the EZX10RF to keep numbers the same, but then that would have been to logical….

Following is a basic log, which shows the wrong response. However when I did a detail log, I cannot duplicate the results, at least not yet.

Paul
Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 3:16 pm

Post count: 1001

#43657

Paul,

The X10 messages are coming in the middle of the EZX10RF Group messages. An Insteon Group protocol consists of two Insteon messages. The first is a Group Broadcast message followed by a Group Cleanup message to each linked Responder, with the Responder (ISY PLM in this case) sending an ACK back to the EZX10RF for the Group Cleanup message. There is an X10 message occurring between the Group Broadcast and the Group Cleanup. That in and of itself is not an issue but the timing is such that the X10 message could easily get lost since it goes on the powerline in the blind (no ACK) and apparently without concern for anything else that is on the powerline at the time. In the detail trace there is a case where Group Cleanup was retried (two Group Cleanup messages) which suggests the timing between the EZX10RF writing the two Group messages and the alarm system putting out X10 messages are in conflict. Also the fact that the slight timing difference between the level 1 event trace and the level 3 event trace producing different results also suggests a timing issue between the Insteon messages being generated and the X10 message traffic.

Is there any way to create a delay in the X10 traffic coming from the alarm system so that they cannot overlap the Insteon message activity? Likely the alarm system is putting out multiple X10 messages to try and improve the reliability of X10, not anticipating the fact that the first X10 message would result in powerline traffic.

There is no means of changing the timing between the Group Broadcast and the Group Cleanup messages. The EZX10RF hands a Group On request to the internal PLM which then does all the processing to put the Insteon Group messages on the powerline and handle any needed retries. Insteon protocol is taking care of any issues that the overlapping X10 is causing Insteon but the alarm system has no way of knowing the X10 messages may be what is being lost.

Lee

Anonymous
Inactive

January 30, 2011 at 7:05 pm

Post count: 9

#43658

Lee,

Was afraid that was where we might be heading. There is no way to adjust the alarm system, by “design”, I’m sure reliability, it puts the codes out twice. In the old days of the “Time Commander” I always had to program a delay before responding.

Time to move ahead with “plan b”.

As always, thanks for your help.

Paul
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