- machine24MemberMarch 23, 2009 at 10:11 pmPost count: 6
Hey gang… so I’m about to pull the trigger and order a new motorized home theater screen from SeymourAV.
What I’d really like to be able to do is press a button on my Insteon KeypadLink to make the screen go up and down. On the SeymourAV web site, it says…
The 4-wire Gen4 motors come with separate power wires for the up or down positions. You can directly wire these into our maintained paddle switch if you only want wall switch control. … Maintained wall switch – Use this maintained-contact paddle switch if you are just wiring the switch directly to the motor and don’t need any other control options. These are 115Vac only and are available in ivory or white.
…the switch being refered to is a 3 position momentary switch. I want to recreate this with the Insteon KeypadLinc (using two buttons would be fine) and the EZIO2x4.
SmartHome has this nice pic on their site for something similar, but not exactly the same thing and I think this product/plan assumes low voltage?
Can anyone here help me figure out exactly how to make this work? Could do it with the two relays on the EZIO2x4? I’m not feeling very confident about the low vs/ line voltage application and/or the momentary nature of the switch they use.
Thanks a bunch!
Here are some related links.
grif091MemberMarch 23, 2009 at 11:46 pmPost count: 1001
The EZIO2X4 has two independently controllable relays, with COM/NO contacts rated at .5A 120V AC resistive load. The EZIO2X4 has a built in timer associated with each relay that can be configured to turn the relay off after 1 sec, 2 sec, 3 sec, etc up to several minutes. Activating the timer and setting an interval in the 2 to 3 second range simulates pressing a momentary push button. I have my 2X4 relays connected in parallel with my garage door opener controls, with timer values of 3 seconds, with each relay activated by a press of a KeypadLinc button to open/close my garage doors. Setting the relay timers requires the use of the SimpleHomeNet Utility Suite (free PC based software download) which in turn requires a Smarthome PLC or SimpleHomeNet EZBridge or EZSrve to communicate with the powerline.
Any KeypadLinc in 6 button or 8 button mode can be used to activate the EZIO2X4 relays.
I would make sure the load you are thinking about controlling with the EZIO2X4 relays does not exceed their rated capacity. It that is not an issue than be sure you have or plan on purchasing what you need to run the SHN Utility so that the relay timer values can be configured. You can manually control the relays on/off cycle by use of the KeypadLinc buttons ( press KPL button to turn relay on, press KPL button again to turn relay off) if that is sufficient control of the load/device you plan to control.machine24MemberMay 1, 2009 at 5:13 amPost count: 6
Well, I’ve now got the screen installed and the EZIO2x4 programmed to turn on and off the relays (which works, I can hear them) but the screen, she isn’t moving. 😥
I’ve got the red and black wires connected from the 4-wire motor to R2_A & R2_B on the EZIO2x4… and I’ve got the green and white wires connected from the 4-wire motor to R1_A & R1_B on the EZIO2x4. I’m really just guessing at the 4-wire motors wiring.
Also, using the Simplehomenet Utility Suite I’ve enabled the Output1 & Output 2 timers to last 3 seconds though I can’t tell if it’s working.
I didn’t think I needed the control box Chris offers because the EXIO2x4 states that its relays are rated for .5A at 30VDC or 120VAC.
Anyone have suggestions for me?machine24MemberMay 1, 2009 at 6:21 amPost count: 6
Ok, I’m now pretty certain that I’m able to successfully set the timers as intended since I can hear the relay click again after 3 seconds.
What I’ve realized though is that while I can successfully program the KeyPadLinc to control the EZIO2x4 without the 4-wire motor attached to the relay ports… I cannot seem to do it when it is. I think I got relay 1 responding once this way but it did nothing for the screen but couldn’t get relay 2 responding.
I’ve now factory reset the EZIO2x4 without the 4-wire motor attached, established a link between the A and B buttons on the KeyPadLinc and the Relays 1 and 2 on the EZIO2x4. I’ve been doing this in an outlet near the wall switch and not near the screen (not sure if that would matter). I then unplug, attach the 4-wire motor wires and move the EZIO2x4 to the outlet in the hole for the screen. At this point I seem to loose control from the KeyPadLinc… when I attempt to re-establish the links again with everything wired in I can’t. I then unplug the EZIO2x4, detach the 4-wire motor wires and perform the rest procedure as I plug it… then start over.
I just tried the reset and test connections with the EZIO2x4 up in the whole for the screen and it worked, though I had trouble and had to try twice to make the connection with relay 1.
I’m thinking that either the EZIO doesn’t have enough amps to drive the 4-wire or I don’t understand the purpose of the 4-wire motor wires. Argh, I want to see the screen move!grif091MemberMay 1, 2009 at 12:00 pmPost count: 1001
Get the EZIO2X4 back into the working configuration where the KPL buttons energize the output relays and the output timers have the delay you want. As you say, you can hear the click of the relays. Once the links and timers are established, move the EZIO2X4 to the intended working location and confirm either by hearing the relay clicks or with a meter that the relays are still operating as expected. Do this without connecting the screen motor to the relays. It sounds like you may be losing relay control when you move the plug point of the EZIO2X4. This would most likely be a coupling problem between the 120v legs. The KPL is on one of the 120v legs and the final EZIO2X4 plug point is on the other 120v leg. Do the KPL button LEDs blink when pressed when the EZIO2X4 is plugged into its final location (without the motor connected). A blinking KPL button LED indicates the responder device is not receiving the commands from the KPL. What type of phase coupling are you using? Only when you have the positive control of the EZIO2X4 relays in its final install location should you connect the load to the relays. The other possibility is there are devices on that circuit which are generating noise or attenuating the Insteon signal. Each relay is nothing more than a switch. The current rating has to do with how much current the relay contact points can carry without being damaged over time. If the motor does not operate as expected when you have determined you have positive control of the relays, then you look at how the motor is wired/controlled. Perhaps it cannot be controlled the way you are attempting with two relays.machine24MemberMay 1, 2009 at 5:02 pmPost count: 6
Thanks for the feedback. I see now that I was moving it around from outlet to outlet too much because its final position is up in hole in the ceiling where it’s hard to see and thread the wires into the terminal block. But if it’s important to have it plugged in and programmed first, I think I can do that do that blind now.
Sigh, I have more info now and I’m afraid I should have gotten to the level of detail I now have before getting this far…
The 4-wire motors wires are Green (Ground), Red (Power Up direction), Black (Power Down Direction) and White (Neutral)… So I know think that the proper positioning should be:
R1_A – Red (Power Up Direction)
R1_B – White (Neutral) – The single wire from the motor should be split and fed to both relays.
R2_A – Black (Power Down Direction)
R2_B – White (Neutral) – The single wire from the motor should be split and fed to both relays.
GND – Green (Ground)
…does this seem correct?
I now also now know that the screen motor requires continuous power until it reaches it’s pre-configured stopping point which is about 20+ seconds. Which I supposed I can deal with. The standard controller which is often sold with the screen apparently has a two position single relay which supplies continuous power only in one direction. Should I be concerned that someone could press both the up and the down buttons on my wall switch at the same time?
Finally, I also just found out that the motor is rated at 220 watts and 1.8 amps. Does this seem like a show-stopper for the EZIO2x4 which I read is rated at 0.5 amps? 😳grif091MemberMay 1, 2009 at 5:57 pmPost count: 1001
From your description you should never apply Up and Down power at the same time. Also that motor is way past the posted spec for the EZIO2X4 relays. Perhaps a method to solve both problems. Use a single separate high capacity relay that is connected to the motor, as the manual controller would be. Then control the high capacity relay coil from one of the EZIO2X4 relays. The single high capacity relay eliminates the possibility of supplying power to both run coils on the motor at the same time. The NC contacts on the relay would control the Up direction (assuming Up hides the screen) and the NO contacts would supply the Down direction. This assumes the screen drive mechanism has some mechanical cutoff that shuts off the motor once it reaches its full Up or Down position. Sounds like it would if the manual control is a relay.
A single KPL button in the default toggle mode would be used to control the screen. Pressing the KPL button On would turn on one of the EZIO2X4 relays which energizes the high capacity relay, closing the NO contacts which would run the screen motor down. Pressing the KPL button again would turn off the EZIO2X4 relay, deenergizing the high capacity relay, driving the screen motor through the NC contacts, running the screen motor up.
Perhaps the screen manufacturer has an additional low voltage low amp controller that the EZIO2X4 relays could connect/control directly.
Radio Shack carries a relay with DPDT 10 amp contacts (275-217), more than enough to control the screen motor. The relay coil draw would not exceed the capacity of the EZIO2X4 relays. I’m sure you can find many other relays from the various online storesgrif091MemberMay 1, 2009 at 6:40 pmPost count: 1001
To verify you have good Insteon communication with the EZIO2X4 at its final plug point, plug a good 3 wire extension cord into the receptacle where the EZIO2X4 will be finally plugged, plugging the EZIO2X4 into the other end of the extension cord. This should get the EZIO2X4 in a location where you can hear the relays and you do not want the motor wires connected anyway. There is no need to program it there. The device does not lose the configuration when power is removed.machine24MemberMay 5, 2009 at 6:03 amPost count: 6
Thanks for all your assistance so far. unfortunately, I’m still having problems. I followed your advice and picked up the DPDT Relay from Radio Shack. I built the following “circuit”. It seems simple enough, maybe I’m making a silly mistake. Here’s what it’s doing…
Thank you![attachment=0:1vu691v6]screen control.jpg[/attachment:1vu691v6]
With absolutely nothing attached to the EZIO2x4 I’m able to easily program it from the KeyPadLinc. I’ve tried programming just one or the other relay or both. I’m not doing anything fancy at this point, just going with the default single button toggle functionality. Before attaching it to the 275-217 DPDT relay it gives an audible on and off click. I’ve got the EZIO plugged in via a short extension cord up in the screen box.
As soon as I plug in the the cord (I just got an old computer power cable) for the 275-217 the screen goes up (if its already down)… and the EZIO2x4 stops responding to the KeyPadLinc. ?!?
I’ve tried programming it with nothing else attached, with just the ground attached, with some of the wires attached but no power from the wall/275-217, and all the wires attached from the 275-217 but no power, etc. I can’t figure it out. As soon as I attach anything to it, it looses the ability to communicate with the KeyPadLinc.
In the mean-time I’ve confirmed that I can put the screen up and down by disconnecting the power from the 275-271, leaving the EZIO2x4 powered), swapping the red and black wires from the motor into the 275-217 and then plugging it back in. So from this I’ve concluded that with everything connected the EZIO2x4 is providing the 275-217 with power to the NC (normally closed) state.
I’m at a loss, can you provide any more insight or suggestions?grif091MemberMay 5, 2009 at 8:44 amPost count: 1001
There are a number of problems. First, no connection to the EZIO2X4 Gnd should exist. This is not a Green wire ground connection. The Green wire ground to the EZIO2X4 is accomplished through the ground pin of the 3 wire plug connection.
Second, the DPDT relay coil is not being controlled by the EZIO2X4 Relay 1 contact. Wall plug 120v hot (black) to R1_B. R1_A to DPDT relay coil pin 8 (as indicated in your diagram). DPDT relay coil pin 7 to wall plug neutral (white). With this arrangement one side of the DPDT relay coil is always connected to the 120v neutral. When the EZIO2X4 relay 1 is energized it supplies 120v hot through its contacts to DPDT relay coil pin 8. This will energize the DPDT relay. When EZIO2X4 relay 1 is energized, the DPDT relay is energized. When the EZIO2X4 relay 1 is not energized, the DPDT relay is not energized.
Third, I think DPDT relay pins 5 and 6 connections to the wall plug are reversed. The diagram shows the motor hot/up and hot/down going through one set of the DPDT relay points ( 2 & 4) to 120v neutral (I was expecting to see DPDT relay pin 6 connected to wall plug hot (black)). There is no need to switch the motor neutral through DPDT relay points 1 and 3 but if you do, the motor neutral DPDT pin 5 should be connected to wall plug neutral (white). Motor neutral (white) can be connected to wall plug neutral (white). The 120v neutral circuit is normally not switched.
Make the changes to the EZIO2X4 Gnd, and the DPDT relay coil connections. Do not have anything connected to relay pins 5 and 6. Verify that when the EZIO2X4 relay is energized the DPDT relay is energized, when the EZIO2X4 relay is not energized, the DPDT relay is not energized. When that is confirmed working, then connect relay pins 5 and 6 to the appropriate wall plug hot and neutral connections.machine24MemberMay 5, 2009 at 5:28 pmPost count: 6
Guess I was pretty far off, it makes sense when you explain it. Oh well, I’m just happy it may still work in the end… here’s my attempt to draw what I think you’ve explained. Again, thank you for the help!
[attachment=0:395pwhvo]screen control v2.jpg[/attachment:395pwhvo]grif091MemberMay 5, 2009 at 6:28 pmPost count: 1001
The new diagram looks okay. The GND connection on the EZIO2X4 is the low voltage side of the device. It is used in conjunction with the 4 EZIO2X4 Inputs to control the Input states. The R1_A and R1_B function just as pin 3 and 5 do on the DPDT relay. When EZIO2X4 relay 1 is energized, R1_A and R1_B are connected together, just as pin 3 and 5 are connected together when the DPDT relay is energized.
There is one last item. Once the wall plug is connected, there will be power to the motor up or motor down. I think it would be a good idea to have a manual switch that turns off power to the wall plug which ultimately supplies power to the motor. What is labeled wall plug hot should go through a standard 120v on/off wall switch. You can always pull the plug but my concern is the “plug” is going to be in the ceiling where access will be difficult to impossible to reach in an emergency.
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