AnonymousInactiveMarch 4, 2011 at 4:23 amPost count: 82
To link the outputs using the SHN Utility for use in Indigo with the PLM as responder do I do the following?
Write two links in the EXIO4X2 as Controller of Device, device ID is the ID of the PLM.
Write two links to the PLM as Responder of Device, device ID is the ID of EXIO4X2.
bobAnonymousInactiveMarch 4, 2011 at 7:55 amPost count: 1001
The Relays are Responders, the PLM is the Controller. The PLM requires a Controller link with the address of the EZIOxx, the EZIOxx requires a Responder link with the address of the PLM. One pair of link records for each Relay.
In the Responder link in the EZIOxx for Relay 1 the LD1/2/3 data is 00 00 00.
In the Responder link in the EZIOxx for Relay 2 the LD1/2/3 data is 00 00 01.
There is no need to create links in the other direction as the Relays do not function as Controllers.
The EZIOxx Relays can also be controlled directly without using Groups (links). The Insteon Direct commands to turn the Relays On/Off are described in the EZIOxx Advanced Programming Details document available in the Downloads section of the web site.
Output ON – 0x45
Output OFF – 0x46
LeeAnonymousInactiveMarch 4, 2011 at 1:09 pmPost count: 82
So to set the PLM as controller is like so?
and the EXIO4X2 as responder like so?
thanks for your help,
bobAnonymousInactiveMarch 4, 2011 at 4:12 pmPost count: 1001
Those link records should work.
the LD1/2/3 fields in the PLM Controller records are not used by the PLM and are often set to 00 00 00.
Group number 00 is not normally used. I suggest Group numbers in the 1-254 range. Some Insteon hardware uses Group 255 for special All On/Off so stay away from that number as well.
LeeAnonymousInactiveMarch 4, 2011 at 4:35 pmPost count: 82
I used group number 00 as thats what was in your example in a previous post. I’ll use 01 & 02 rather thatn 00 & 01.
You said that “The EZIOxx Relays can also be controlled directly without using Groups (links)”, if you don’t use links then how is the data sent to the EZIO4X2?
The Utility is turning out to be a great tool. In a previous post I asked you about the the problem I was having in reading the links reliabably and you were right on the money! it was noise caused by my Macbook Pro adapter plugged into the same circuit as the PLM. A filter link fixed it. I think now previous problems with unreliability were probably due to noise so I’m installing Filterlincs on suspect appliances & devices in the house.
Thanks again for your help!
bobAnonymousInactiveMarch 4, 2011 at 5:19 pmPost count: 1001
For direct relay control without using Groups and links issue an Insteon Direct command 0x45 in the cmd1 field to turn On a Relay. The Relay number is in the cmd2 field. The relay number in the cmd2 field origins at zero, cmd2=00 for relay 1, cmd2=01 for relay 2. A cmd1 value of 0x46 with the same cmd2 convention turns the relay Off.
LeeAnonymousInactiveMarch 4, 2011 at 9:15 pmPost count: 82
I’m using Indigo, I don’t think it’s possible to send an Insteon Direct command ?
bobAnonymousInactiveMarch 4, 2011 at 9:28 pmPost count: 1001
I thought Indigo had the capability to turn a individual device On/Off (Insteon Direct command) in addition to turning a Group of devices On/Off. I have not used Indigo so I could easily be wrong. Just an impression I had from information other Indigo users have posted.
LeeAnonymousInactiveMarch 5, 2011 at 7:14 amPost count: 82
Sorry my mistake. Yes you can send direct command in Indigo using applescript.
I’ve written the links in the EZIO4X2, is there any way to test the links are correct and working? The device was working before I wrote the links by just installing it in Indigo but I did the linking as I believe without it, it just operates using broadcast commands?
Next I want to tackle a long time problem and that is my EZIO8SA. I think I may have had the unreliability due to using broadcast commands rather than linking and the fact that I’ve discovered noise in the lines and installed FilterLincs to fix it.
I’m using the 2412S for the SHN Utility but it’s the EZIO8SA’s PLM. Can I use the 2413U for the SHN Utility?
bobAnonymousInactiveMarch 5, 2011 at 8:13 amPost count: 1001
The EZIO2X4 Inputs use Broadcast messages when there are no links and the Virtual Input Group number is zero (and the Configuration Register is set to enable Broadcast messages). The Inputs use Group On/Off messages when there are links and the Virtual Inputs have the Group number set to match the respective link record regardless of Configuration Register setting. The test for success for the Inputs is whether an Input state change sends a Broadcast message or a Group On/Off message. I did not think Indigo was designed to respond to Group On/Off messages, only looking for Broadcast messages. Group messages are generally more reliable because the Group protocol requires the messages to be ACKed and retired. Broadcast messages are not ACKed and not retired.
The EZIO2X4 Output Relays can be turned On/Off with the Direct commands described in previous posts or the Relays can be turned On/Off with Group commands when links described in this topic been established. The test of the links is to issue Group On/Off commands for the Group numbers defined in those links.
The SHN Utility works with any of the PLM variants including the 2413U USB Dual Band PLM. Simply specify the COM number assigned to the USB port the PLM is connected to. All PLMs support the command set used by the SHN Utility. The Utility does not know if working with a Serial or USB connected PLM. It is simply connecting to a COM port number.
LeeAnonymousInactiveMarch 5, 2011 at 5:16 pmPost count: 82
You’re talking over my head, I have to catch up! Sorry for so many posts and questions but I’ve never had much luck with your devices and I’m trying hard to get them to work. I think it’s because Indigo can’t set links in the EZ devices and uses only broadcast messages. I think you can set the links manually (I’m checking with PA on this) using the set buttons but I’m trying to use the SHN Utility. What is the Virtual Input Group number and where is it displayed? Where can I find the Configuration Register to see if it is set to enable Broadcast messages?
Matt at PA says;
Yes, you can send Insteon DIrect Commands via AppleScript. But why not use the Action in the UI to control the relay? I’m referring to the action type “Control Input/Outpud Device”, then choose either “Turn On Output” or “Turn Off Output.” Those actions send that exact direct INSTEON commands (0x45).
Here is my log when activating the EZIO4X2 outputs, is this the correct response when linking is set correctly?
2011-03-05 10:01:33 AM
Sent INSTEON “EZIO2X4 – output 1” on (ack: 1, 0)
Sent INSTEON “EZIO2X4 – output 2” on (ack: 1, 1)
Sent INSTEON “EZIO2X4 – output 2” off (ack: 1, 0)
Sent INSTEON “EZIO2X4 – output 1” off (ack: 0, 0)
bobAnonymousInactiveMarch 5, 2011 at 5:41 pmPost count: 1001
Those are Indigo messages (Indigo interpretation of the Insteon response) which mean something to Indigo but means nothing to me. I am familiar with the actual Insteon responses if those are traced and can be posted.
Matt indicates Indigo Actions can be used which do not require any links to the output relays. What is driving the desire to create links and use Group commands rather than Direct commands?
FYI: Broadcast messages relate to how the EZIOxx devices send Input state changes to the application. Broadcast messages have no relation to how the output relays are controlled.AnonymousInactiveMarch 5, 2011 at 6:59 pmPost count: 1001
Sorry, I do not mean to talk over your head. To do manual Input configuration and linking using the SHN Utility requires knowledge of the configuration information and how it relates to link records and linking in general.
Each EXIOxx Input has configuration information. The EZIOxx tab, Inputs Settings and Monitor tab, displays and sets each Input configuration.
The Input Group number is assigned through this tab. An Input has no default Group number from a factory reset condition. I suggest assigning Input 1 to Group 1, Input 2 to Group 2, and so on. The remainder of the Input configuration information can remain with default settings. Using the Set button to link an Input automatically sets in the Input Group number. The Input Group number is the Group number that must be using in the link records in the EZIOxx and the PLM for the specific Input.
WARNING: once you set an Input Group number it overrides and suppresses Broadcast messages for that particular Input. Doing so probably breaks Indigo as I think Indigo is dependent on the Broadcast messages for Input state changes.
The Configuration Register is displayed on the right side of the EZIOxx tab display. The Read button will read the current settings, the Write button writes changes made to the Configuration Register. I believe Indigo is dependent on the Broadcast Status Chg option being set. With this option set Inputs which are not linked (and do not have a Group number assigned) will generate a Broadcast message when an Input state change occurs.
A good way to under the relationship of configuration information and linking is to look at all the information after a factory reset. Then create a Set button link for an Input. Now look at the configuration information and the link database to see what information was established using the Set button. All the same information must be set manually when creating it through the SHN Utility.
LeeAnonymousInactiveMarch 5, 2011 at 7:57 pmPost count: 82
Those are Indigo messages (Indigo interpretation of the Insteon response) which mean something to Indigo but means nothing to me. I am familiar with the actual Insteon responses if those are traced and can be posted. – How do I see the actual Insteon responses ?
Matt indicates Indigo Actions can be used which do not require any links to the output relays. What is driving the desire to create links and use Group commands rather than Direct commands? When I was trying to create links and use Group commands I didn’t realize Indigo uses Direct Commands for the outputs. If Indigo is using direct commands to operate the EZIO4X2 outputs then is Indigo using the ACK message function?
Also I ran into unreliability problems with my EZIO6I because Indigo sets it up using Broadcast messages. Maybe I’m confusing the operating functions of Broadcast Messages & On,Off Group commands. Can both inputs & outputs use Group commands?
As I remember it is always inputs I have problems with and Indigo uses broadcast messages for inputs. It looks like Indigo uses direct commands to operate the outputs and broadcast messages for inputs. I’m waiting to hear from Matt but I think I can use Group commands for inputs but they have to be set with the SHN Utility or using the set buttons.
This is a steep learning curve for me. I wish there was book I could read on it! I really want to understand it so I can get the best out of my devices.
I’ll digest your last post and also see what Matt says regarding Indigo and group commands on inputs the go from there. I’m going to gather all the info form my posts and print it out as there is lots of good info there to get a grip on.
thanks again for all your help!
bobAnonymousInactiveMarch 5, 2011 at 8:54 pmPost count: 1001
When most Insteon messages (Broadcast message is an exception) are sent to a device, Insteon protocol requires the responder device send an ACK back indicating the message was successfully received. This is automatic and not unique to SHN devices. Sending an On message to a LampLinc, the LampLinc sends an ACK back to the Controller device that sent the On message. This required and automatic ACK is one of the reasons Insteon is more reliable than X10 which has no ACK. Should the device that sent the On message fail to receive the ACK response, it will retry sending the On message up to three times before indicating the On message failed. The ACK and retry process is done automatically by the internal PLM which all Insteon devices contain. Intermittent powerline noise generally does not last long enough to prevent one of the multiple On messages from being successfully received and ACKed.
A Direct message sent from Indigo (through PLM) to control an EZIOxx relay will always be ACKed by the internal PLM or external PLM in the case of the EZIO8SA. An Insteon Direct message contains both the Controller Insteon address and Responder Insteon address which is why link records are not required for Direct messages. Applications (like Indigo) cannot suppress the message/ACK exchange.
All Smarthome devices send Group On/Off messages to signal state changes. Pressing a KeypadLinc button, a SwitchLinc paddle, a Motion Sensor indicating motion, and so on, all send Group On/Off messages which require the responding device to send an ACK message indicating the Group On/Off message has been received.
The SHN EZIOxx family of devices all have the capability to send Group On/Off messages in response to Input state changes, just like the Smarthome devices. As with the Smarthome devices, Group communication requires links be established between Controller and Responder devices. It is the link records that identify the Insteon addresses of the Responder(s) so the Controller knows what devices to send the Group messages to. The Responder link records have the Insteon address of the Controller device that is permitted to control the Responder device. The Set button (and sometimes the button/paddle) can be used to establish the required link records.
Most applications have implemented link management function that write the link records and any other configuration information programmatically without the need for running around pressing Set buttons and/or buttons/paddles.
Again, to reinforce, all Group On/Off messages must be ACKed by the responding hardware.
The Insteon protocol documents a Broadcast message as an alternate means of signaling state changes. This form of signaling Input state changes does not require the Controller device (EZIOxx) to be linked to the Responder device. Without the benefit of link records the Controller (EZIOxx) does not know the address of the Responder device(s) so the Broadcast message is sent on the powerline in the blind (to no specific responder device address). Every Insteon device on the powerline can look at the Broadcast message. Because the Broadcast message is not sent to any specific responder NO ACK is sent back by any responder device and no retry is possible. Broadcast messages are like X10, one way only with no ACK and no retry.
Utilizing the Broadcast protocol is comparatively simple since no link management is needed and very little device configuration is required. It is also the least reliable aspect of the Insteon protocol because ACK and retry are not possible.
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