EZX10RF Repeats transmissions 2009-06-03T04:06:25+00:00

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  • Anonymous
    Post count: 7
    #40167 |

    I had an EZX10RF that exhibited the “stops working” behavior. Every few days it would lock up and need to be unplugged for a while before it would work again. In the “locked up” state, it would put X10 commands onto the power line, but it would not send the corresponding Insteon commands.

    I had gotten the unit from Smarthome, and they exchanged it for a new one (bless them).

    The new one didn’t lock up, but whenever it received an X-10 wireless signal it sent the corresponding Insteon command exactly 5 times. The repetition didn’t stop responders from working, but it introduced annoying delays in response. Smarthome replaced the second unit, too (more blessings).

    I now have a third EZX10RF, and it also repeats have every Insteon command it sends 5 times. I am reluctant to wear out my welcome at the Smarthome returns department.

    Is there something I am doing wrong? Is there a way to fix this?

    If it helps, #2 had address 01.7E.DB and #3 has address 01.7E.D0.

    Regards,
    –Rich

    Anonymous
    Post count: 1001

    A device that is repeating Insteon commands is normally due to one or more responders not ACKing the Insteon command. Did you unlink the old EZX10RF from the responders and relink the new EZX10RF so the responders would have the Insteon address of the new EZX10RF.

    Edit: what are you using to view the Insteon traffic on the powerline? If you can post the command I can identify the device that is not responding.

    Anonymous
    Post count: 7

    I have an ISY/99i.
    The EZX10RF currently installed is 01.7E.DB.
    The PLM is 0D.FD.22
    09.A5.36 is a an ICON Appliance Adapter.

    I did a factory reset on the EZX10RF, then programmed X10 devices using the button press method. EZX10RF is linked to the PLM, not directly to 09.A5.36. 09.A5.36 is turned on by an ISY program. The ISY trace log for one X-10 button press follows.

    2009/06/03 05:22:19 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 05:22:19 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:19 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 05:22:19 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 05:22:19 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:19 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 05:22:19 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:20 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 05:22:20 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:20 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 05:22:20 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:20 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 0D.FD.22 41 11 01 LTONRR (01)
    2009/06/03 05:22:20 : [Standard-Cleanup][01.7E.DB–>ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0
    2009/06/03 05:22:21 : [ Time] 05:22:22 2(0)
    2009/06/03 05:22:21 : [ 1 7E DB 1] ST 255
    2009/06/03 05:22:21 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 09.A5.36 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:21 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 05:22:21 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 09.A5.36 0D.FD.22 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:21 : [Standard-Direct Ack][09.A5.36–>ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:22 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 05:22:22 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 09.A5.36 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:22 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 09.A5.36 0D.FD.22 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:22 : [Standard-Direct Ack][09.A5.36–>ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:22 : Duplicate: ignored
    2009/06/03 05:22:22 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 05:22:22 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 05:22:22 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 09.A5.36 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:23 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 09.A5.36 0D.FD.22 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:23 : [Standard-Direct Ack][09.A5.36–>ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:23 : Duplicate: ignored
    2009/06/03 05:22:23 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 09.A5.36 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:23 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 09.A5.36 0D.FD.22 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:23 : [Standard-Direct Ack][09.A5.36–>ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:23 : Duplicate: ignored
    2009/06/03 05:22:24 : [ 9 A5 36 1] ST 255
    2009/06/03 05:22:24 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 09.A5.36 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:24 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 09.A5.36 0D.FD.22 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:24 : [Standard-Direct Ack][09.A5.36–>ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:24 : Duplicate: ignored
    2009/06/03 05:22:24 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 00.00.17 CF 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:25 : [INST-ACK ] 02 62 09.A5.36 0F 11 FF 06 LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:25 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 09.A5.36 0D.FD.22 2B 11 FF LTONRR (FF)
    2009/06/03 05:22:25 : [Standard-Direct Ack][09.A5.36–>ISY/PLM Group=0] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 05:22:25 : Duplicate: ignored
    2009/06/03 05:22:26 : [ Time] 05:22:26 2(0)

    Thanks for any insight you can provide.

    Regards,
    –Rich

    Anonymous
    Post count: 1001

    Insteon controllers send a Group message sequence to signal On and Off. The first message is a Group Broadcast which identifies the controller and the group number. There is no command retry associated with this message as it is not addressed to any specific responder. The second message in the Group sequence is a Group Cleanup Direct and this message is sent to each linked responder. This message has command retry associated with it as each responder must ACK the message. If the controller does not receive an ACK it resends the Group Cleanup Direct message.

    The traced sequence is very strange because the Group Broadcast is being shown 5 times in a row, even though there is no command retry associated with that command. The Group Cleanup Direct, which does have command retry, is being sent only once and there is an ACK of that command from the PLM.

    First let me make some assumptions which you should agree or disagree with. This is happening only with the EZX10RF. No other devices show multiple Group Broadcast messages being issued. The same sequence was observed from two different EZX10RF devices. If these assumptions are true then either two different EZX10RF devices have the same trait or there is some other variable involved. Is there more than one wireless X10 device producing the same results? What happens if you send the same X10 code directly over the powerline (no wireless)?

    There are some issues with the ISY programming in that it produced 6 commands to the ApplianceLinc, one for each Group Broadcast and one for the Group Cleanup Direct. This is my assumption as I know nothing about how ISY works. If a command is being sent to the ApplianceLinc as a result of receiving a Group Broadcast (a normal Insteon device receiving the Group Broadcast would turn On/Off in response) the subsequent Group Cleanup Direct should have been ignored. Not a major issue and it has nothing to do with the multiple Group Broadcast messages.

    One possibility is the RF signal is weak or intermittent, being sensed only long enough to generate the Group Broadcast but not long enough to trigger the Group Cleanup Direct. This seems like a low probability because it seems unlikely the command would be issued 5 times each time. The PLM could be repeating the Group Broadcast to the application (ISY in this case) but this also seems a low probability if the EZX10RF is the only device showing this sequence. If the same sequence is generated by multiple X10 wireless devices and it is not seen from any other Insteon device, that leaves the EZX10RF at the top of the list, except it is hard to believe multiple EZX10RF devices would fail the same way.

    Perhaps more diagnosing will help. Trying different X10 wireless devices, sending the same X10 code from a wired X10 controller, making sure no other devices produce the same results.

    Anonymous
    Post count: 1001

    I have an old EZX10RF, v14. I linked it to the PLM for PowerHome. I get multiple Group Cleanup Direct messages if I hold the wireless X10 button. A simple press/release and I get a single message. If I press and hold I get 3 messages. After that the remote shuts itself off so I cannot hold it long enough to generate more than 3 messages. Perhaps your wireless X10 signal is of long enough duration to produce multiple messages.

    EDIT: a possible solution is to change what triggers the ISY event that turns On the ICON. In PowerHome it is possible to trigger off the Group Broadcast or the Group Cleanup Direct or both. It is normally best to trigger off the Group Cleanup Direct only as that command has command retry built into the Insteon architecture and you don’t need any logic to bypass the Group Cleanup Direct if a Group Broadcast had already been received and acted upon. Don’t know if this is possible with the ISY but I would think so.

    Anonymous
    Post count: 7

    Thanks for the feedback. I’ve done some more testing, but first I’ll answer your questions as best I can.

    First let me make some assumptions which you should agree or disagree with.
    This is happening only with the EZX10RF.

    Correct.

    No other devices show multiple Group Broadcast messages being issued.

    Correct.

    The same sequence was observed from two different EZX10RF devices.

    Correct. The two more recent EZX10RF’s show this behavior. My original one did not (but it had the lockup feature). I don’t know how Insteon addresses are assigned. The two devices that work the same have addresses of 01.7E.DB and 01.7E.D0. Does that imply they were from the same batch? The original one was 06.4E.07.

    If these assumptions are true then either two different EZX10RF devices have the same trait or there is some other variable involved. Is there more than one wireless X10 device producing the same results?

    Yes. I get the same result with an X-10 Keypad remote, a Key chain remote, and a motion detector.

    What happens if you send the same X10 code directly over the powerline (no wireless)?

    Nothing. There is no response from the EZX10RF when I send the same X-10 On command over the wire.

    Here are some other samples. The first 3 are X-10 wireless, picked up by the EZX10RF.

    In this one, E.0.66 is an OutletLinc linked as a direct responder (no ISY program involved, although the PLM is linked, too)
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.04 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=4] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [ 1 7E DB 4] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [ E 0 66 1] ST 255
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [ 1 7E DB 4] ST 255
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.04 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=4] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [ 1 7E DB 4] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.04 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=4] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:57:32 : [ 1 7E DB 4] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:57:33 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.04 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:57:33 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=4] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:57:33 : [ 1 7E DB 4] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:57:33 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.04 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:57:33 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=4] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:57:33 : [ 1 7E DB 4] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:57:33 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 0D.FD.22 41 11 04 LTONRR (04)
    2009/06/03 17:57:33 : [Standard-Cleanup][01.7E.DB–>ISY/PLM Group=4] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

    In this one, there is no responder (although the PLM is linked in)
    2009/06/03 17:59:15 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.05 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:15 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:15 : [ 1 7E DB 5] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:15 : [ 1 7E DB 5] ST 255
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.05 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [ 1 7E DB 5] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.05 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [ 1 7E DB 5] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.05 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:16 : [ 1 7E DB 5] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:17 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.05 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:17 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=5] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:17 : [ 1 7E DB 5] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:17 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 0D.FD.22 41 11 05 LTONRR (05)
    2009/06/03 17:59:17 : [Standard-Cleanup][01.7E.DB–>ISY/PLM Group=5] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

    In this one, the X-10 message came from a motion sensor. (The first two were keypads.)
    2009/06/03 17:59:31 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:31 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:31 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:31 : [ 1 7E DB 1] ST 255
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:32 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:33 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 00.00.01 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 17:59:33 : [Standard-Group][01.7E.DB–>Group=1] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 17:59:33 : [ 1 7E DB 1] DON 0
    2009/06/03 17:59:33 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 01.7E.DB 0D.FD.22 41 11 01 LTONRR (01)
    2009/06/03 17:59:33 : [Standard-Cleanup][01.7E.DB–>ISY/PLM Group=1] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

    In this last example, the EZX10RF is not involved at all. The controller is an Insteon keypad and the responder is the same OutletLinc from the first example. There is no repetition of commands.
    2009/06/03 18:14:11 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 0B.4A.DF 00.00.08 CB 11 00 LTONRR (00)
    2009/06/03 18:14:11 : [Standard-Group][0B.4A.DF–>Group=8] Max Hops=3, Hops Left=2
    2009/06/03 18:14:11 : [ B 4A DF 8] DON 0
    2009/06/03 18:14:11 : [ E 0 66 1] ST 255
    2009/06/03 18:14:11 : [ B 4A DF 8] ST 255
    2009/06/03 18:14:11 : [INST-SRX ] 02 50 0B.4A.DF 0D.FD.22 41 11 08 LTONRR (08)
    2009/06/03 18:14:11 : [Standard-Cleanup][0B.4A.DF–>ISY/PLM Group=8] Max Hops=1, Hops Left=0

    Regards,
    –Rich

    Anonymous
    Post count: 1001

    Thanks for the information and the traces. They basically show the same thing, a series of 5 Group Broadcasts followed by a single Group Cleanup Direct. The one trace that is different is the one where a single Group Broadcast and Group Cleanup Direct come from the KeypadLinc. It sure looks like the EZX10RF device is in question. No other Insteon devices present this sequence and multiple X10 wireless devices produce the same result. You have an external Smarthome PLM that connects the ISY to the powerline for Insteon command flow. The line of Simplehomenet products are built around an internal PLM, also manufactured by Smarthome. The SHN products are built on a Daughter board that fits inside a standard Smarthome device shell along with the internal PLM. The internal PLM does all the actual powerline communication, just as it does with the external PLM and the ISY device. It is the PLM that has the Insteon address burned into the device. The close proximity of Insteon addresses suggests they are probably the same revision of PLM. SHN has a free software package on their Downloads web section that displays the revision level of the EZX10RF Daughter board. This software requires a PLC (not PLM) or an EZSrve/EZBridge to communicate through to access the EZX10RF device.

    Anonymous
    Post count: 1001

    Does the ISY have any way to display the link database of the EZX10RF or do you have a PLC or EZSrve/EZBridge so that you can run the SHN Utility Suite to display the link database and the virtual record definitions? I noticed that the last trace shows Group 5 being used. If you have 5 X10 addresses defined, that is an interesting coincidence. In that there may be 5 virtual records defined with 5 different X10 addresses with 5 different link records and we are seeing 5 Group Broadcast commands. If that is true I would like to see the link database and the virtual record definitions to see if there is anything that might explain the 5 Group Broadcast commands. If there is no way to display that information, I know this may be asking a lot, but can you factory reset again and add just two X10 addresses and see if the number of X10 definitions matches the number of Group Broadcast commands being sent. Really no reason to suspect they are related, just found the Group 5 in the trace to be interesting.

    Anonymous
    Post count: 7

    I don’t have a PLC or an EZBridge. I have searched all over but not found a program to talk to the EZX10RF directly through the PLM. The ISY does a link dump for a device, but it can’t show the extended data in the EZX10RF. It looks like this:

    That corresponds to the 8 X-10 addresses I’ve programmed into it.

    I’ve also tried resetting the device and adding one link. It still responds 5 times to the X-10 On command.

    Regards,
    –Rich

    Anonymous
    Post count: 1001

    Thanks, that information is what I was looking for. I had a thought last night that maybe there were 5 X10 addresses defined (5 Virtual Inputs) and the 5 Group Broadcast messages were related to that number somehow. Getting 5 Group Broadcast messages each time, in one case where you have 8 X10 addresses defined and in the other you have 1 X10 address defined, it means it is unrelated to the number of Virtual Inputs (X10 addresses) or the number of link records defined (9 link records). The number 5 does not match anything that the EZX10RF is aware of. Also there would be no logic in the EZX10RF to retry a Group Broadcast message due to a NAK being received from some device as that message is not directed to any specific device. It was a straw. If there were 5 Group Cleanup Direct messages along with the 5 Group Broadcast messages I might think firmware in the EZX10RF itself but that seems unlikely when it is only the first message in the sequence that is being repeated. The only program I am aware of that displays the actual Virtual Input information is the SHN Utility Suite itself. Hoped the ISY might have that ability also but it does not look like it. All the link records point to the ISY PLM except 1. Group 4 has two links, the second link points to device 0E.00.66. I have run out of things to check. Unless you have another thought it seems like another RMA is the only thing left. You can always program around this by triggering only on the Group Cleanup Direct, ignoring the Group Broadcast messages altogether.

    Anonymous
    Post count: 7

    The desired actions eventually take place, it’s just the delay is noticeably longer with the repetitions happening.

    I’ll pursue the RMA route.

    Thanks so much for your help in analyzing this. I really appreciate it.
    –Rich

    Anonymous
    Post count: 1001

    Any time. Sorry I could not identify the specific cause. Post back when you get the next one and let us know how it is working. My concern is that it is not an actual hardware failure but some glitch has developed in the communication in the PLM or between the PLM and the EZX10RF Daughter board. If it is not an actual hardware failure the next one may well act the same way as the last two.

    Anonymous
    Post count: 7

    My inclination is bite the bullet and get native Insteon wireless gadgets. I don’t have that much X-10 left.

    Regards,
    –Rich

    Anonymous
    Post count: 1001

    I think you will be happy with the Smarthome RF devices. I’ve had a RemoteLinc for a long time and it has worked perfectly. I have one X10 wireless keypad I use in the truck to turn on/off the Front Porch lights and a few X10 motion flood lights left that work fine as far as controlling the floods but not very well in sending and receiving the X10 address. I connected a standard outside flood light to an EZIO2X4 to get Insteon status and remote control on a detached garage. Works great. Some day Smarthome may actually ship the Insteon based exterior flood lights. I had a falling out with Smarthome over HouseLinc 2 order I made a mistake on. They refused to email me the rebate form, telling me I had to ship the order back and order the rebate version. I’ve not bought a Smarthome product since.

    Anonymous
    Post count: 7

    LOL

    I have a whole list of companies that I don’t deal with because of an issue like that. I don’t even remember what some of them did to me anymore. 🙂

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